We The Liberals, Confused or Hypocrite?
Recent discussion on alleged conversion of Allama Iqbal from Qadiyani to Sunni Muslim for personal gains, gave me a pause to reflect on the liberals’ high-minded view of themselves and the their scorn often thrown at the conservatives and orthodox for being close minded and lack of analytical thinking. Believe or not, I consider myself a liberal. I think when convenient, we liberals also become close minded and ignore independent and rational analysis, because it serves our agenda or ideology. This is true at international, national and local level.
At international level, in Egypt, Muslim Brotherhood won presidential elections fairly. But liberals, who speak very highly of democracy, now are siding with generals to subvert the democratic process. They were protesting the meeting of Hillary Clinton with President Morsi, a democratically elected president. One can understand liberal’s concern of imposition of Sharia, but as liberal, we should try to prevent it within a democratic process. After all democracy is the highest priority. Now very conveniently we are throwing away this higher goal and are siding with dictators because we lost election and democracy does not serve us well. In a democratic process, voters have the right to have a government of their choosing. Liberals are trying to say that forget about what the majority is saying, only we know what is good for you! A short sighted and close minded view!
The trouble with us is that we talk a lot, we do not have convictions and we do not put every effort towards achieving the goals. Again this is true at local, national and international level. Muslim Brotherhood won because they were organized, they had convictions and put every effort in convincing the people to vote for them. Liberals did not do any one of that. In order to prevent Sharia becoming a law, in a democratic process, we have to work hard, organize and convince the people to vote for us. But we do not want to do the hard work, so we abandoned democratic principle, and sided with generals. How it will achieve the goal of Democracy?
Mr. Obama, hero of liberals, doubled down on Mr. Bush’s policies both abroad and at home. He did not supported democratic movements where it did not serve America’s interests (Bahrain), and continues to support allied dictators but is calling for democratic change in non-allied regimes. At home, the Gautama Bay is still open, more restrictive clauses have been added to Patriotic act and breach of individual privacy is no longer a concern. The most troubling aspect of all of this is that most of the Democratic Party is dead silent because Mr. Obama is one of their own. If it was a Republican President, the Democrats would have shouted at full throttle.
At a local Muslim community level, most of the Islamic Centers/ Mosques are run and managed by conservatives, and Islamic Centers are the only infrastructure for all the Muslims in this country. If any social change is needed, it has to come from these Islamic Centers. For any successful change to occur, both at local and international level, the conservatives have to be part of the equation and discussion. Excluding them from such equation, does not isolate them, but it isolates us-and that is a self-defeating proposition.
Even though conservatives are in minority, but they still control most of the Islamic Centers. It is because they are very committed and give lot of personal time as compared to liberals. Apart from providing services for religious teachings, on all religious and other occasions, most of them arrive early at Islamic Centers to prepare the place for gathering, arrange for food and then stay late for after cleaning. Very few liberals are willing to devote this much time and effort, but we are very good at criticizing and talking.
On Pakistani Community level, we are analyzing the creation of Pakistan in a hindsight view, sometime fairly in a constructive manner and sometime unfairly. Some of the liberals, who do not agree with the creation of Pakistan, are not afraid to attack the personal lives of the Pakistani Movement Leaders. In the discussion on Iqbal, we disregarded reliable and well documented evidence and found whispers of conspiracy and loose talk trustworthy and presented it as truth, because it served our agenda and ideology. It is ironic that most of the liberals rightfully came to the defense of Abdus Salam, because Qadiyani connection has no relevance, but some liberals are using the same connection to discredit Iqbal.
Before the creation of Pakistan, there were highly respectable and esteemed political and religious leaders giving arguments for and against the creation of Pakistan. There was robust discussion. In my view, it was an honest discussion on both sides. The task of leaders in favor of the creation of the Pakistan was even more difficult because they were facing the opposition from some Muslim as well as Hindu leaders. Muhammad Ali Jinnah and his companions were successful because they were able to overcome this opposition and convince the public that the creation of Pakistan is the best solution. Looking in hindsight, analyzing it and suggesting how to improve the future, is a fair exercise, but character assassination and showing disrespect for the leaders is destructive and unproductive. We say that we are trying to correct the history because there is a cover up, but very conveniently we muddy the waters of history when the true history is not to our liking.
I think liberals neither show due respect nor give due credit to their worthy opponents. This is a serious mistake. We have to give our due respect and deserved credit to them and try to understand their point of view, otherwise this high-minded approach will lead nowhere.
Fayyaz A. Sheikh
I think,it is not the matter of Liberal or Conservative…………we hypocritically pose ourselves either way.Everyone is conservative in its nature yet some times it’s emotions overcomes its instinct and becomes liberal. As I said,we change our thinking approach as desired to the ocassion to achieve personal agenda.In reference to the liberal support to the democracies in non allied nations,what do you think ,some conservative President would have a different approach,no not at all.They are working on their stipulated agenda,none of the President would deviate that path,it is all political gimmicks and slogans on both side of the aisle.
As of the Pak community particularly,we are the most liberals at one moment and extreme conservative in the next moment,so no one can predict our reaction to be.Our all policies are based upon the emotions not on logics.
In my view,the caption should read as follows,
“Liberals & Coservatives…..both hypocrite”
Thanks,
Tahir Mahmood.
Dr. Fayyaz’s presentation is an excellent assessment of the whole situation. I am very clear that we are DRASTICALLY CONFUSED. Ibn Rushd’s presentation of rational and scientific discourses served as a modern foundation for theoretical openness, political freedom, and religious tolerance in Western thought. His works were burnt and he was banished by the Muslims. Today we are CONFUSED, because in our daily life we are dependent on Western sciences so far so that every morsal of food we put in our mouth is scientifically processed and every penny we earn is because of science, but the strings of our religion–as a Deen–pulls us back to first Hijri social and traditional life. I am afraid the way things are developing throughout the world of Islam, Muslims are going backward instead of marching forward.
We need to believe openly that philosophy and science is ordained, or at least recommended by our religion because the Qur’an in many of its verses enjoins rational consideration (“Consider, you who have vision”) in seeking knowledge of the universe’s nature. This clearly suggests that people by the use of logic should facilitate the process of deduction leading them to the unknown from the known.
Mirza
I am not ready to buy the idea that Deen e Islam pulls us back to the first Hijra and every penny we earn is because of western scientific advancement.We should not forget that all the western scientific progress based on the discoveries of the Muslims,it is different story that we forgot our encesters and let the reign to the west.It is not the Deen or religion whom we should blame but to ourself.Try to ponder self behavior towards education,where our elders left and at what level we stand now?
Tahir.
No doubt that Islamic achievements are the foundation of Western successes. Perhaps you have not considered what I referred about Ibn Rushd. The West fully acknowledges the Golden Period of Islamic progress in philosophy and sciences. But we cannot keep boasting “pidrum sultan bood” (my father was sultan). It took almost three centuries for the Muslims to accept clock time for daily prayers and it’s still controversial whether to go with seeing the moon or accept the scientific calculation, which is hundred percent accurate.
However, I agree with you that we are to blame ourselves as what I have quoted from the Qur’an is very clear that we are not even trying to understand what the Qur’an is guiding us. I, therefore, did not say that Islam is taking us back, but it is the Deen, meaning our way of life which is pushing us back. I am not surprised with the behavior of the mulla, but I am deeply concerned about many highly educated, specially the comupter scientists, who still do not believe in the present scientific and astronomical accuracy.
Mirza
I’m afraid I failed to see the connection between Dr Fayyaz’s analysis and Mirza Ashraf Saheb’s commentary. I did agree with Tahir Saheb, from what little I could make sense of Mirza Saheb’s comments. Having said that, I’m anxiously looking forward to Mian Aslam Saheb’s response to Dr Fayyaz’s analysis. I intend to send my own response to Dr Fayyaz’s analysis upon my return from vacation in Newzealnad and Australia on the 29th.
Mr. Azeem, I wish it were that easy to see a connection. There is a beautiful anecdote that Mulla Nasr-ud-din was seen looking for something by the street lamp post. People asked what was he looking for. Mulla replied that he was looking for the silver coin he lost. People asked if he remembered where he might have dropped it. He replied that he remembered to have dropped it some where in his house. People laughed and said, “Then why don’t you go and find it in your home.” Mulla replied, there is no light in my house.
Do you, like other people who just laughed, see any connection between Mulla, the coin, the lamp post and his dark house? Perhaps to see connection one has to come out of the darkness of one’s heart and mind.
I will wait for your WELL CONNECTED response to Dr. Fayyaz’s posting but definitely not with my comment which cannot be seen in the light.
Mirza
I had no idea Mirza Saheb equated himself with Mulla Nasr-ud-din. Good for him. I have no shame in admitting that I would have been the one laughing if Mulla pulled that supposedly philosophical stunt with me. Laughing, that is exactly what I am doing even now. In all fairness to Mullah, he did explain that he was looking for his coin elsewhere where there was light, but Mirza Saheb has still not explained what and how the connection existed. I’d request him though, to give it to me slowly, because brilliance of mind, as he already noted, is not my treasure.
Sorry for the brevity ; I’m on the go.
Wequar
P.S. I have difference of opinion on this issue with Dr Fayyaz, unlike my gulf of comprehension with Mirza Saheb, and I will respond to Dr Fayyaz on the first free evening I get. That’s a promise.
“Recent discussion on alleged conversion of Allama Iqbal from Qadiyani to Sunni Muslim for personal gains, gave me a pause to reflect on the liberals’ high-minded view of themselves and the their scorn often thrown at the conservatives and orthodox for being close minded and lack of analytical thinking. Believe or not, I consider myself a liberal. I think when convenient, we liberals also become close minded and ignore independent and rational analysis, because it serves our agenda or ideology. This is true at international, national and local level.”
I think the right way to comment on Dr Fayyaz’s observations is to take each paragraph of his observations and put forward my thoughts on it for review and consideration of TF Affiliates.
Before beginning with paragraph-wise response, I would first clearly state how I perceive the Conservatives, Orthodox, Rightists or say compliant religious people of all organized Faiths. To me they are all cut from the same cloth ; psychological cousins so to say. I say this because none of them is BORN with the Beliefs they profess, admire and practice and defend furiously. At birth they are same as Liberals. That changes few hours after birth. They are Baptized by the Priest, blown an Azaan into their ears by a family elder, or blessed by a Rabbi, or laid by a Pundit Pujari at the ‘ charan ‘ of a Hindu Deity in a temple for Bhagwan’s benevolence. After that first step a long process of initiation, teaching of dogma, training of the rituals, exhortations to follow the commands without question, and to defend the handed down religious injunctions with their life, is done by the combined and unrelenting forces of parents, family, clan, teachers and entire community, throughout the formative years and beyond. They are resultantly conditioned to be uniform in their thinking, in their religious functions and rituals, starting from birth to Sunday masses, Juma prayers, Sabbath, morning Puja etc etc etc The habit of mechanically following a religious routine with discipline and military like chain of command is instilled in the Conservative/Orthodox/Religious/Ultra-Rightists people throughout their lives. A small example of it, to elaborate this point, is how to form the rows for Namaz in a mosque, right down to the style of standing with prescribed distance between the two feet, shoulders touching etc etc. Same kind of minute detail applies to what goes on at each religious ritual in a Temple, in a Mosque, Synagogue or Churh . Being organized as a Parish, as a Jama’at, as a congregation in Synagogue, and collectively in general when pitted against the Liberals/non-believers, is the outcome of life long brain-washing and conditioning. They grow up conditioned not to question the validity of Prophethood, Commandments, holy scripture or to ask for verification or empirical proofs. They are collectively reduced to unthinking, unquestioning, ROBOTS duly programmed to follow the RELIGION and defend it with their life. Is that really Belief or mere brain-washing ? Belief is an internal process of mind, by definition, not an element planted in mind by exterior agents.
The Liberals are free birds. They follow the instinct and common sense. Nature has provided them the brain with skills to analyse, plan, reason, compare options, and decide upon the best course of action. They are not trained to act in unison against the Conservatives, whereas the Conservatives have been trained, primed and motivated to do that against the Liberals. Liberals are a heterogeneous phenomenon. To expect the Liberals to gather together for a collective response to Conservatives is a natural impossibility. They do not belong to a commonly held and organized identity with a chain of command. Therefore, Liberals are scattered individuals, bearing individual approach. The can not be accused of being collectively and selectively close-minded or devoid of analytical thinking. That’s a natural impossibility.
“At international level, in Egypt, Muslim Brotherhood won presidential elections fairly. But liberals, who speak very highly of democracy, now are siding with generals to subvert the democratic process. They were protesting the meeting of Hillary Clinton with President Morsi, a democratically elected president. One can understand liberal’s concern of imposition of Sharia, but as liberal, we should try to prevent it within a democratic process. After all democracy is the highest priority. Now very conveniently we are throwing away this higher goal and are siding with dictators because we lost election and democracy does not serve us well. In a democratic process, voters have the right to have a government of their choosing. Liberals are trying to say that forget about what the majority is saying, only we know what is good for you! A short sighted and close minded view! “
The democracy is one man one vote to determine how to run the country through representatives voted in by their respective constituencies. Egypt is headed for Salafi theocracy in the garb of democracy. That happened because the individuals suspended their minds, true to conservatism, and blindly followed the commands of Mullah. This also happens in Pakistan where the feudal lord, Sardar, Sajjada Nasheen, Wadera tells the poor peasants and followers to put their vote in a box decided by the Lord. Is that real democracy ? In a Muslim Salafi State, which is what Egypt is being turned into by the brain-washed Salafi Mullahs, there is no democracy. Democracy calls for sovereignty of the PEOPLE. In a Muslim theocratic state the SOVEREIGNTY belongs to Almighty. Hence it is not democracy that Liberals are trying to undo. In a Muslim theocracy Human Rights are institutionally violated. It is infested with by misogyny, polygamy, pedophilia, stoning to death, hand-chopping, beheadings, among other punishments. Does Sharia Law comply with UNO charters pertaining to human rights ? No ! Those who believe in Human Rights have to act. They should not be condemned as opponents of democracy.
The trouble with us is that we talk a lot, we do not have convictions and we do not put every effort towards achieving the goals. Again this is true at local, national and international level. Muslim Brotherhood won because they were organized, they had convictions and put every effort in convincing the people to vote for them. Liberals did not do any one of that. In order to prevent Sharia becoming a law, in a democratic process, we have to work hard, organize and convince the people to vote for us. But we do not want to do the hard work, so we abandoned democratic principle, and sided with generals. How it will achieve the goal of Democracy?
Muslim Brotherhood comprises people described in my preamble as the organized, disciplined and structured group of people who act in unison with military-like chain of command, true to their life-long training and indoctrination. And yes the Liberals are unorganized but they hold the common values of Human Rights close to their individual hearts. They are trying to right the wrong about to be done in Egypt in the name of democracy.
“Mr. Obama, hero of liberals, doubled down on Mr. Bush’s policies both abroad and at home. He did not supported democratic movements where it did not serve America’s interests (Bahrain), and continues to support allied dictators but is calling for democratic change in non-allied regimes. At home, the Gautama Bay is still open, more restrictive clauses have been added to Patriotic act and breach of individual privacy is no longer a concern. The most troubling aspect of all of this is that most of the Democratic Party is dead silent because Mr. Obama is one of their own. If it was a Republican President, the Democrats would have shouted at full throttle. “
This paragraph is not directly about debate of Conservatives versus Liberals. It deals with the conduct of a Super-power whose primary interest is to save and promote its geo-political interests and objectives. Its primary objective is not complying with Human Rights.
”At a local Muslim community level, most of the Islamic Centers/ Mosques are run and managed by conservatives, and Islamic Centers are the only infrastructure for all the Muslims in this country. If any social change is needed, it has to come from these Islamic Centers. For any successful change to occur, both at local and international level, the conservatives have to be part of the equation and discussion. Excluding them from such equation, does not isolate them, but it isolates us-and that is a self-defeating proposition. “
Yes Conservatives are organized and dedicated. But they can never be one with the Western Society of Liberals because of their Belief and Dogma and preference of Sharia over adherence to Human Rights.
“Even though conservatives are in minority, but they still control most of the Islamic Centers. It is because they are very committed and give lot of personal time as compared to liberals. Apart from providing services for religious teachings, on all religious and other occasions, most of them arrive early at Islamic Centers to prepare the place for gathering, arrange for food and then stay late for after cleaning. Very few liberals are willing to devote this much time and effort, but we are very good at criticizing and talking. “
Same reason as stated in the previous paragraph.
“On Pakistani Community level, we are analyzing the creation of Pakistan in a hindsight view, sometime fairly in a constructive manner and sometime unfairly. Some of the liberals, who do not agree with the creation of Pakistan, are not afraid to attack the personal lives of the Pakistani Movement Leaders. In the discussion on Iqbal, we disregarded reliable and well documented evidence and found whispers of conspiracy and loose talk trustworthy and presented it as truth, because it served our agenda and ideology. It is ironic that most of the liberals rightfully came to the defense of Abdus Salam, because Qadiyani connection has no relevance, but some liberals are using the same connection to discredit Iqbal “
Is it necessary for a presumed hero to be all nice and hunky dory ? Must he be perfect and flawless in character or personality. Why this assumption that when reported negative facts it must be propaganda ? Who has an axe to grind, for what benefit ? That is a typical closed mind thinking .
Ghalib bura na maan jo dushman bura kaheN-aisa bhi koi hae sab achha kaheN jisay ?
This is no DUSHMANI…it is simply intellectual integrity…to state things as they are, without gilding or sugar-coating. It doesn’t make Iqbal any less of a poet, whether he was Qadiani for many years, had Qadiani parents, Qaiani elder brother or even if his own son was sent to a Qadiani madersa for his first phase of schooling. To generalize such reports as malicious and anti-Iqbal is actually anti-agenda and anti sugar-coating. That is typical mind-set of a Conservative who has been told to defend the untouchables, no matter what. Such person has to be a closet Conservative masquerading as a Liberal.
“Before the creation of Pakistan, there were highly respectable and esteemed political and religious leaders giving arguments for and against the creation of Pakistan. There was robust discussion. In my view, it was an honest discussion on both sides. The task of leaders in favor of the creation of the Pakistan was even more difficult because they were facing the opposition from some Muslim as well as Hindu leaders. Muhammad Ali Jinnah and his companions were successful because they were able to overcome this opposition and convince the public that the creation of Pakistan is the best solution. Looking in hindsight, analyzing it and suggesting how to improve the future, is a fair exercise, but character assassination and showing disrespect for the leaders is destructive and unproductive. We say that we are trying to correct the history because there is a cover up, but very conveniently we muddy the waters of history when the true history is not to our liking. “
Public figures are fair game for scrutiny and exposure. If they are treated as deities, it would not be spreading of knowledge but spreading of lies and propaganda. The history books have been re-written, text books have been doctored, schools have been used to mislead the entire nation to fit the purpose of conservatives. Hasn’t that happened in compilation of Quran and Hadees ? Out of thirty odd versions of Quran, one had to be finally selected while all others were ordered destroyed to boast about preservation of the word of Allah without any change of smallest detail. Out of over many many thousands of ahadees only few hundreds were considered reliable and follow-worthy. How come facts unearthed about Iqbal are so sacrosanct ? The Conservatives need to grow up and learn to face the facts.
“I think liberals neither show due respect nor give due credit to their worthy opponents. This is a serious mistake. We have to give our due respect and deserved credit to them and try to understand their point of view, otherwise this high-minded approach will lead nowhere. “
Iqbal’s claim to fame is his poetry. No body belittled his poetry. That is the only respect he commands equally from both Conservatives and Liberals. His being a Qadiani and converting to Sunni faith is being construed as if he became respectable only after he became a Sunni. Who says being a Sunni is respectable and being Qadiani is condemnable ? That is not what Liberals think. Both Sunnis and Ahmedis have their share of ultra Conservatives and they think quite poorly of each other. Why should the liberals be blamed or accused of wrong-doing ?
Thank you Mian Aslam Sahib for presenting the counter view.
Fayyaz
While I was reading the Mian Sahib’s comments, I was thinking that I may have to write another article “We the Liberals and Our Excuses “, because we do not want to put our money where our mouth is. Organize, work hard, try to explain to the people that what harm some of the Sharia Laws (blasphemy Laws etc) can do to a society, why a law should be adopted because it is a good public policy law, and not because it is from Sharia – It is a hard long slog but unfortunately ‘free birds’ by nature are not supposed to that. Don’t organize or work hard towards a goal because it is something only conservatives are supposed to do! Who is supposed to do it for liberals? Generals! The world is very cruel on people who depend on handouts. If we want to achieve something, we have to jump into the arena, dirty our hands and do it ourselves.
I agree that leaders and famous personalities are fair game, but does being respectful and avoiding personal attacks, while expressing an opposing point of view, makes them a ‘deity’?
With all due respect, the answers are mostly intellectual exercise of excuses, self-patting, and blame others while overlooking our own shortcomings.I think we should go back and read Mian Sahib’s recent e-mails with categorical assertions as facts with no qualifiers, and compare them with current comments. Is any reliable verifiable proof has been provided ? This should not be clouded with ancient history and interesting recent assertion that only scientific facts can be verified. If I claim some information was taken from a text book, why it cannot be verified? I agree with Salik Sahib that Mian Sahib is learned and well read person and I am sure he knows the rules of verification.
Initially I decided not to write anything further because I thought my original article does not need any further addition. After reading Salik Sahib’s e-mail, I thought I should write few lines now and may be later a full article on “ We The Liberals and Our Excuses”,
Fayyaz
An e-mail to Salik Sahib by Mehfooz Sahib.
To: Noor Salik
Subject: Re: We the Liberals – Confused or Hypocrite by Fr. Fayyaz Sheikh
I never like to get involve in this kind of conversations, because such discussions lead to no reasonable conclusion It solidifies my full agreement with Dr. Fayyaz Sheikh.I AM IN FULL AGREEMENT WITH HIM’,I am sure this is going to fully qualify me to become a member of the” Club of No Brainers”..As it was earlier diagnosed by by an expert that those who agree with others either do not have brain or if have any little they do not know haw to use it ( perhaps on an agreement of Dar sahib to some earlier comment).
May be I was wrong in my perception of The Thinkers Forum.I thought it would be a platform where people would express their different opinions and would leave it to the readers wisdom to draw their own conclusions.To me no matter, how high you perceive your level of intellect and knowledge , it does not qualify you to be- little others, to look them down and hurl insults to others intelligence in order to satisfy your self pride.Having led to believe that liberals do not come from any human society ( being fully clean and clear of ambient influences) and are perhaps born out of coconut or may be any other nut shell,I can not control my descent to conservatism, in any way I want to preserve my humanity..This again is only to comply with your command to attempt and learn to write at least something._ (see am I not a born conservative because I have learned the lesson .to obey the command of those whom you respect)
This is again for your, and leave it share with those my consider appropriate,I am not responding or answering any one, I try to avoid to get involve in shouting match because I have a fair idea of limitations of my intellect, knowledge, writing ability and time.
Humbly yours……………………………………………………mehfooz